


Meta posts I made to the RatBoat mailing list

by Shadowscast_meta (Shadowscast)



Series: Once a Thief meta [3]
Category: Once a Thief (TV)
Genre: F/F, F/M, Gen, M/M, Meta, Nonfiction
Language: English
Status: In-Progress
Published: 2002-04-13
Updated: 2002-06-14
Packaged: 2021-02-27 20:53:57
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Chapters: 9
Words: 6,618
Publisher: archiveofourown.org
Story URL: https://archiveofourown.org/works/22982047
Author URL: https://archiveofourown.org/users/Shadowscast/pseuds/Shadowscast_meta
Summary: The RatBoat mailing list on Yahoo Groups was the place to go for slash-centric discussion of Once A Thief back in the years 2001-2004.  In this work, I'm collecting some of the posts I made to that list.
Series: Once a Thief meta [3]
Series URL: https://archiveofourown.org/series/1651588
Collections: March Meta Matters Challenge





	1. musings on why I like Mac

**Author's Note:**

> These posts were all originally posted to the [RatBoat](https://fanlore.org/wiki/RatBoat) mailing list on Yahoo Groups. I'm editing them somewhat, for formatting and readability as well as to remove some details that aren't suitable for archiving.
> 
> Even though these posts are nearly 20 years old, I still welcome comments! Nothing would thrill me more than to get a new discussion going in the comments section.
> 
> Each chapter here was originally a separate post to the list. The dates I'm putting on the chapters are the dates I originally posted to the list. (It was a loooong time ago! I was so young!)

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted to the RatBoat mailing list on 2002-04-13.
> 
> Uploaded to AO3 on 2020-03-01.

I like Mac.

I didn't come to OaT through the X-files (actually I kinda came through Due South, in that ads for OaT aired during Due South and I was intrigued). Point being, I came in as a blank slate, with no prior experience of any of the actors/characters, and I fixed on Mac as my favourite.

Mac periodically gets accused of being a "teenage girl" and the accusations are well-founded, I admit. *shrug* When I started watching OaT, I *was* a teenage girl; maybe that made him more accessible to me. :) And hey, Vic's old enough to be my father (well, only if it was one of those really scandalous jr.high pregancies, but still...). It was Mac I was attracted to. After I discovered slash, I figured out how beautiful Vic's eyes are and how sweet he is and how much fun it is to picture him and Mac getting it on... but I digress.

[another fan] wrote:  
> Mac has a lot of hidden layers & I  
> think that's what intrigues me about him.

Yes! I agree totally.

He reminds me of another character I used to be intrigued by... now don't laugh, but did anyone else out there watch Tale Spin? It was a cartoon show, by Disney, mostly populated by characters from the Jungle Book, except it was set on a tropical island in the 1920's (I think) and Baloo was a cargo pilot. Anyway, Mac sort of makes me think of a grown-up version of Kit Cloudkicker. (Only in the 90's instead of the 20's, and with a Triad gang instead of Air Pirates, and with humans instead of anthropomorphic cartoon bears, and having nothing to do with airplanes at all...) Kit was this 12-year-old whose parents were apparently dead; when we meet him in the show's pilot ep, he'd been with the Air Pirates (the show's main villains) for about a year, but has just run away from them, having "got sick of them". Remind you at all of Mac? Only Kit left after a year, and Mac stayed 'till he was an adult. But there are similar themes - the abandoned child, the lost childhood, the young boy who's had to learn to act tough because he lives in a criminal environment.

Kit was my favourite character on any show when I was a pre-teen... I was intrigued by his dark past. (It being Disney, his dark past was never referred to in any episode after the pilot, much to my frustration.) Mac appeals to me similarly.

Besides which, I like Mac's playfulness. A sense of fun is very important to me in characters and real people alike! He's also got an appealing strong/vulnerable mix going - he's a kick-ass action hero (like everyone on the show) but there are moments when the whole world seems to be just crushing him, and I totally want to give him a hug - or better yet, send Vic in to do it. :) In _Mac Daddy_ for instance, when his father stands him up and effectively abandons him again, and at the beginning of _Li Ann's Choice_ when he's dealing with the fact that Li Ann would have let him die.

So. That's my 2 cents for the night. Not meaning any offence at all to fans who came for Nick Lea and prefer Vic - I can certainly see what you see in him! I just felt like talking about Mac tonight.  
*smile*


	2. thoughts while watching "Mac Daddy"

**Summary for the Chapter:**

> My notes during a re-watch of the episode "Mac Daddy".

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted to the RatBoat mailing list on 2002-04-18.
> 
> Uploaded to AO3 on 2020-03-01.

Hey everyone,

I just watched the episode "Mac Daddy" again. I was home alone with no one to poke and share the good bits with (*pout*), so I decided to try something new (and slightly silly). I took notes as it went along - just my reactions to and thoughts about the stuff that happens in the episode. And now I'll share them with the group. hee hee. No particular organization to this, just things that occurred to me as I watched. Obviously, this means a major SPOILER ALERT... stop reading now if you haven't seen the ep and don't want to know what happens!

OK, I love the fight scene at the beginning, where Mac decides to take on the bad guys all by himself (when he's not supposed to engage them at all), and he gets the crap kicked out of him. This sounds bad, I know, but it's *hilarious*! Of course, this scene is good canonical support for everyone who writes Mac as an irresponsible, child-like character. I love Mac, he's my favorite, and he does kind of make me cringe in this scene, but it's so *funny*. I love how Vic and Li Ann watch the scene with an attitude of, hm, I'd call it affectionate bemusement.

The first meeting of Mac's dad and the Director has a couple of great lines.... In particular, I think the Director's line (about how if she ever met a person who understands her, that person wouldn't live very long) says a lot about her interactions with people in general. hee. She is a woman of mystery. A scary woman of mystery.

Then there's a bit that's gotta be in the Top 10 list of the slashiest moments in the show... towards the end of the briefing, the Director takes Mac's sunglasses off him, sees the cut over his eye, and says "You have a few battle scars. They certainly make you look more masculine. They might even help to dispel some of those rumours that are floating around here about you." *ROTFL*! At which point Mac darts a guilty look in the direction of Li Ann and Vic. And then the view cuts to Vic, who's smirking at Mac. Hee! It goes on, too - the Director has like one more line, and then there's a scene change, and what we see is a bunch of roses. Mostly red, a couple white. Then a pan which shows us they're in the hall right outside Mac's apartment. Now, it's a well-established OaT trope that red roses stand for Vic, and white for Mac, right? *grin* That was fun.

We come to the bit where Mac's dad stands him up for lunch - I think that's the saddest thing. I mean, Mac obviously wanted it *so* much - he paid Dobrinsky $1500 to cover for him (incidentally... he walks around with $1500 *cash* in his wallet??). And then he shows up all hopeful, and his dad won't let him into his own apartment. It's so *sad*! And this is one of the Director's more evil moments of all time. How could she do this to Mac?

I found the scene where Mac was following the driver when the bad guys caught up with him (the driver) interesting. At first, the thugs are threatening the driver, and we see Mac nearly get up from his hiding place to intervene, but he says to himself "No interventions, no body count. That's what she said," (the Director's orders) and stays put. Like, oh my God, he *can* follow orders! But then when it's clear that one of the thugs is about to *kill* the driver, Mac steps in, despite orders. I like this moment because it's an example of one of Mac's good qualities. Despite his general flippancy and irresponsibility, he does have a sense right and wrong, and he feels strongly responsible to do right. This is why he left the Tangs in the first place - he couldn't reconcile himself with the gun-running thing.

I love the evil doctor's new-age feel-good psychobabble. OaT has wonderful villians, I think. Not terribly realistic, mind you, but wonderful.

OK, major confusion alert!! Mac says of his father "I have not seen that guy in six years. What am I talking about? I haven't seen him six times in my whole life." Now, assuming Mac is the same age as Ivan Sergei (seems like a good bet in the absence of any other info), this would make Mac 19 or 20 when he last saw his dad, right? And they've met only 6 times, ever?? I didn't notice this bit last time I watched this ep. I was always under the impression that Mac joined the Tangs when he was in his early teens --... maybe I got this from fanon? But I'm sure I thought this before I ever discovered fanfic. Well, Mac and Li Ann and Michael are supposed to be like brothers and sister to each other - this gives me the impression they were together as kids. Anyway, the conversation about Mac's dad abandoning Mac in Hong Kong takes place in this very episode, and that conversation, though it doesn't get specific, does give me the impression that Mac was a minor in his dad's care at the time. Agh, my head hurts.

There's a running joke in this ep, that seeing internal organs makes Mac squick. I find that very sweet, for some reason. I mean, he's supposed to be this hard-core secret agent, former Triad gang member... but he'd probably faint in a grade 10 biology lab. (You know, when they get to the frog dissections). It's so... vulnerable. (personal note: I used this fact in a very twisted way in my fic Unforgivable.)

The scene where Mac and Vic are tied to posts, and have to escape - this is a great teamwork moment. I love it when the guys really work well together like this.

Ah hah! This is the ep where Mac says he doesn't use a shoulder holster because "it ruins the line on my jacket." Of course, he tosses this line off in the *middle* of a gunfight. Not terribly realistic, but I love the dry, witty dialogue they generally manage in the middle of their fight scenes.

And this brings me to the very end... where Mac watches the tape from his dad. His expression at the end is so sad. *sniff* I want Vic to go over and give him a hug.


	3. Vic and the shades of grey

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted to the RatBoat mailing list on 2002-05-15.
> 
> Uploaded to AO3 on 2020-03-01.

I just watched _The Art of Death_, and it brought to mind the recent discussion here about Vic's character. By the way, look out below for spoilers for that ep and also for Kangaroo Court, if anyone cares at this point.

[Fan A] wrote:  
> But I have to agree with [Fan B] that Vic is too  
> conservative and self-righteous. I also think that he is a  
> hypocrite, as well. The revelation that he slept with his snitch,  
> Ivy certainly takes the shine off our "boy scout's" merit  
> badges. Although, Ivy comes off as more than willing there is the  
> implication that he abused his power as a cop. He was certainly  
> never adverse to abusing physical power as a cop or an agent,  
> because after all he knows who the bad guys are. Self-righteous?

In _The Art of Death_, Vic quite directly confronts this aspect of his personality. In fact, I think that McCoy (hee hee hee... Sulu, McCoy... *giggle* *cough* *ahem* I'm OK now) McCoy actually *personifies* this aspect of Vic's character. McCoy is a cop who insists on a black-and-white, good guys vs bad guys view of the universe. The Star Trek joke aside, the character's name has significance here - he's named McCoy because his parents were fond of old American westerns. The ethos of most of the old Westerns is exactly that simple - good guys vs bad guys - and McCoy is named after a cowboy. Anyway, this puts him in direct conflict with Mac and LiAnn. They have a history with him - apparently he arrested them once back when they were "kids," and they both seem pretty troubled by the experience. Basically, Mac accuses him of police brutality. 

McCoy makes a lot of this explicit in one line (addressed to Mac):

> McCoy: You see too many shades of grey. For Victor and me, the world  
>  is either black or white. You're a thief. Your world is murky. Our  
>  world must be clear. Someone is either with you or against you.  
> 

Vic is inclined to sympathy with McCoy's view of the world; McCoy exhibits a more extreme form of the self-righteousness and willingness to abuse physical power that [Fan A] observed in Vic. Near the end of the episode, McCoy has one of the "bad guys" at gunpoint and is very likely about to shoot her. Vic stops him. McCoy asks "Why did you stop me?" and Vic answers "Because Mac was right." And then they have a fight. Now, this fight scene doesn't make much sense in terms of the actual plot. They're in a building which is about to explode - causing a whole hell of a lot of death - and they're on the same side, which is the let's-stop-the-building-from-blowing-up side, so they realistically should and probably *would* concentrate on disarming the bomb and settle their idealistic differences later. So, I interpret the fight as symbolic. By beating McCoy up, Vic rejects his "with you or against you" world view. 

On the other hand, _Kangaroo Court_ is a later episode, and Vic seems to be back on the self-righteous kick. When they find out that a renegade judge is summarily executing criminals who got off on technicalities, they have the following conversation:

> Mac: So they're holding, like, a court of their own.  
>  Victor: Well, just taking out the trash.  
>  Mac: Who are you, Kurt Russell? They're killing people.  
>  Victor: Yeah, but they're killing guilty people. Besides, what... what  
>  do we do week after week?  
>  Mac: That's different. People shoot at us. We protect ourselves, we  
>  defend ourselves.  
>  Victor: So, these vigilantes are protecting society, man. It's exactly  
>  the same thing.  
>  Mac: No, it's not.  
>  Victor: Yes, it is.  
>  Mac: No, it--  
>  Victor: all right, maybe it's not exactly the same thing, but it's an  
>  analogy.  
>  [...]  
>  Victor: I'm not saying that they're right to kill people on their own.  
>  All I'm saying is, I know how they feel. They got a point.  
>  [...]  
>  Victor: At least they're cleaning out the scum and the lowlifes

It seems here that Vic hasn't changed much. But once again his self-righteousness is challenged; slightly later in the scene quoted above, Vic finds *himself* on the list of lowlife scum that the vigilantes plan to execute. 

Hope this analysis made some sense,

Shadowscast


	4. Location

**Summary for the Chapter:**

> I chime in on a discussion about the location of the series.

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted to the RatBoat mailing list on 2002-05-18.
> 
> Uploaded to AO3 on 2020-03-01.
> 
> Note that I'm removing references to other fans' names or pseuds when I'm re-posting this old messages, and replacing them with generic [Fan A], [Fan B] etc. I'm re-starting at the beginning of the alphabet in each post/chapter; [Fan A] in chapter 4 is not necessarily the same person as [Fan A] in chapter 3.
> 
> If it happens that you're a RatBoat member from back in the day and you recognise your own quoted words in one of these snippets and would like to be credited, just let me know and I'll happily do so!

[Fan A] wrote:  
> > Actually, I don't think they ever pretended not to  
> > be in Toronto. 

[Fan B] wrote:  
> Except that in the Pilot, the Director invites Mac to Vancouver  
> explicitly.

Here's the situation as I understand it:

The pilot movie definitely had the Agency in Vancouver. As [Fan B] said, it's referred to by *name*. And they're supposed to be dealing with the Pacific Rim, which Toronto is most definitely not a part of.

I've learned from others on this list that the series itself was filmed in Toronto - I guess that means right from the first episode? (I don't know Toronto and Vancouver well enough myself to definitely differentiate them by sight. Though I was actually in Toronto today for the first time in 9 years. Wheee!). Toronto is never named (I think), but there are plenty of Toronto and Ontario-specific references within the show.

This inconsistency is never addressed in the show - not unlike the fact that no one in the show says anything about the fact that the Dobrinsky in the pilot and the Dobrinsky in the series are different men!

I guess that as fans/fanfic writers, it's up to us to either ignore this or explain it away. Personally, I tell myself that the Director just moved her unit out to Vancouver temporarily to deal with the Tang case, and after the pilot she moved it back to Toronto. Vic has to be *from* Toronto, because he has a history with people there which keeps popping up in later eps, and the Director seems to have long-term ties there too (the Caligula, for ex.). When the Director told Mac that the team he was joining works on the Pacific Rim, I guess she may have been dissembling a bit. *shrug* She's compulsive that way. (As for Dobrinsky, I tell myself that the guy in the pilot was the uncle of the guy in the series.)

Anyone else have a pet explanation for all this?

Meanwhile, on the related topic of whether the Agency is affiliated with the Canadian government or is a branch of some international thing:

Well, they do call it a "shadowy government agency." I always figured that meant it was part of some particular government, and they are in Canada.

In one fic, I did assert the existence of an "international section" affiliated with the Agency. My thought there was that we are dealing with some sort of shadowy Interpol-like organization, but it has branch offices which are actually under the jurisdiction of the countries they're in.

Cheers!

Shadowscast


	5. the emotional finale

**Summary for the Chapter:**

> My impressions after watching the final three episodes of the series for the first time.

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted to the RatBoat mailing list on 2002-05-20.
> 
> Uploaded to AO3 on 2020-03-01.

OK. About 5 days ago I finally obtained tapes of the entire series. I'd seen most of the eps before, but mostly that was several years ago, and there were a few eps I *hadn't* seen, including the last 3. So, now I've just watched the entire series in fairly quick succession. (This is why I've been popping up so often recently with comments about particular episodes.) Today I watched everything from "Li Ann's Choice" to the series finale. Now it's 3:30 am and I'm all emotional from the end and I want to share.... Obviously, this means spoilers all over the place, so tune out now if that's a problem.

From reading fic and plot summaries I basically knew what was going to happen in the last ep, but it was very different actually seeing it. That one really puts Mac and Li Ann through the ringer, doesn't it? Anyway, there's the oddity in this series of the two extant endings, and I didn't know which one I'd get 'till I got there. Mine was the one where they all die. I'm glad in a way - I find that one more...solid. Believable. I'm dark like that. But it leaves me sad. So now I'm playing REM's "Everybody Hurts" on my stereo (my favourite sad music) and typing this post in the middle of the night.

Odd. This series was very odd. The Agency was very odd. What's up with it, really? A lot of mysteries are left unanswered. The meeting with the Head was very mysterious, and I think that episode ("The Director Files") was really really creepy at the end. And, what's with the *other* team? And, in part 1 of the finale, we see that the Agency's halls are usually bustling with activity, but everyone hides when our team walks by - why??

The development of the relationships between everyone was interesting to watch (and easy to keep track of when everything is watched over a period of a few days!). My impressions: 

The Director oozes a sort of controlled lust *all the time*. Director/Dobrinsky is implied strongly in canon, also Director/Jackie. She's got a clear soft spot for Vic, Mac and Li Ann, despite her tendancy to use them as puppets. There are implications of some history between her and Vic - not personal, I mean professional. They definitely worked together for a good while before Li Ann and Mac showed up. With Li Ann, the Director develops a sort of girls' club atmosphere (especially in "Drive She Said," - in which, incidentally, Li Ann appears in drag. Mmmm.) I think Mac is actually her favourite, in a twisted sort of way. She particularly loves to torture him - especially by coming on to him. 

Now, Jackie/Dobrinsky are obviously paired at the end of "Li Ann's Choice" but there's no indication one way or the other that this carries on, so we can read this how we like. But, in that same episode, *damn* Dobrinsky is hot with his shirt off. 

As for the boys, they are clearly becoming better friends as the series goes on. I think in the last few eps, they've even pretty much given up insulting each other. Also, I noticed that at the beginning the seating order in the briefing room *always* puts Li Ann in the middle, but around "Mama's Boys" they stop doing that. 

And there are oh-so-many slashy moments... I think my favourite (tonight, anyway) was the time Mac showed up in Vic's bed. ("I hope you're not wearing pyjamas." "I don't wear pyjamas.") 

But... at the end, Mac is really seriously still in love with Li Ann. He's being surprisingly mature about it - not pestering her - but he is, and the Director for one knows it. 

Li Ann, meanwhile, doesn't seem to fall for anyone at all. The James Bond guy, a little, maybe, but it was more a father-figure thing. She very clearly thinks of Mac as a sibling and Vic as a friend - I think there's no conflict left for her with respect to that. Nathan's in love with Vic - no doubt in my mind. And the Cleaners are a married couple - Murphy's affair with the child-star aside.

I am so glad you're all out there thinking of further adventures for these people.

Love, Shadowscast


	6. Mac/Michael

**Summary for the Chapter:**

> I'd already read a lot of fanfic before I finally watched the final three episodes of the series. In this post, I talked about how my understanding of the Mac/Michael pairing shifted when I saw those episodes.

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted to the RatBoat mailing list on 2002-05-20.
> 
> Uploaded to AO3 on 2020-03-01.

Hi. Me again with more fallout from my marathon... spoiler alert for the pilot and the finale.

I'm thinking about the Mac/Michael pairing. I've seen a number of stories in which Mac has a history with Michael - usually offscreen, either to establish a history of same-sex relations for Mac or to give him a trauma for Vic to help him over.

Before last night, I'd seen the pilot but not the finale. With this background, I'd felt the logic of pairing Mac with Michael was a because-he-was-there kind of thing. I really don't see any slash potential between them in the pilot; they're both too focused on Li Ann for that. I was willing to believe the pairing in fics, because Mac and Michael did have *years* of history between them that we know nothing about and can imagine as we wish - but still, I didn't see it in the show.

But then, the series finale. Whoa. That changes things. There is a *lot* of highly charged tension and unspoken stuff between Mac and Michael in this one, and it *doesn't* seem to be about Li Ann. Instead, it's all about Michael wanting Mac to trust him again - so that when Michael does betray Mac, it will hurt him as Michael was hurt when Mac betrayed him.

What Michael thinks of as Mac's betrayal is not made explicit, and there is a *lot* of slash potential there. From what's said, it seems most likely to me that Michael's talking about when Mac *left*. This does seem odd - because didn't Michael *want* Mac out of the picture? Well. Maybe not.

I guess an obvious het reading of the betrayal thing would be that Michael's referring to Mac stealing Li Ann away from him - but that interpretation doesn't ring true for me at all. For one thing, Michael really doesn't seem to be much focused on Li Ann here - and he doesn't want her back this time, he wants her dead. For another, *Mac* is the one Michael felt the need to pointedly replace in his life (quoting from memory so maybe inexactly; Michael introduces to the new guy to Mac and Li Ann. Michael: "This is my brother." Mac: "I thought I was your brother." Michael: "That didn't work out." It is *so* easy to replace "brother" with "lover" there - and mean almost the same thing, I think.). Then there's a lot of competitive tension between Mac and the new "brother." And this whole "betrayal" thing - it doesn't jive with the Li Ann back story. Back in Hong Kong, Mac and Michael were competing for Li Ann quite openly - for instance I don't think the relationship between Mac and Li Ann was hidden from Michael at all. (The time Michael catches them kissing, no one seems especially surprised or guilty - that says to me that they all knew where they stood already.) When Mac "won" that contest, Michael was certainly *angry* but not, I think, *betrayed*. (Well, maybe by Li Ann, for choosing Mac, but not by Mac.)

Also, there's the whole theme of Mac's distrust for Michael running much deeper than anyone else's. Going by canon, shouldn't *Li Ann* be more freaked out by Michael? She was the one he was trying to possess, in a really scary way. She was the one who witnessed the car bombing. Whereas all that's between Mac and Michael is that when Mac ran away, the Godfather asked Michael to kill Mac (and Li Ann), and Michael tried to do this. Now, Mac doesn't hold this against the Godfather - Mac seems to think it was a fair reaction to his betrayal of the family. And everyone and their dog has taken pot-shots at Mac at some point, including the Director. So *why* is Mac so extremely distrustful of Michael? Seems to me there *must* be more between them.

-Shadowscast


	7. Original Characters

**Summary for the Chapter:**

> In this post, I was responding to a "weekly question" that had been posted to the list to stimulate discussion. The question was about the use of original characters in fic.

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted to the RatBoat mailing list on 2002-05-25.
> 
> Uploaded to AO3 on 2020-03-01.
> 
> Note: I redacted the name of a fan whose previous comments in the discussion I referred to, but I left intact the name of a fan whose _fic_ I referred to, since the fic is still publicly available online.

[discussion prompt]  
> What do you think about original characters? Are they a  
> distraction  
> when you read a story, or do they fulfill a need that no canonical  
> character can? 

I've met some OC's I really liked. A few times, I've grown to care about what happens to the OC's as much as I care about what happens to the, er, *borrowed* characters. After all, I enjoy reading non-fanfic, too, and *all* characters encountered outside of fanfic are OC's. A lot of the fanfic I've read is every bit as good as professional writing (in some cases, *better*), and these authors are capable of creating some great OC's.

For sure, OC's will sometimes fill a need that no canonical character can. Minor OC's will always be necessary as bad guys, for instance - we can't just keep shooting the same villains over and over! 

On the other hand, when an author does re-introduce a minor character from the show, it can be fantastically effective. 

Actually I just read LeFey's Section Six, which contains (in my opinion) great examples of *both* a very good original character, and an effective use of a minor character (Ivy) from the show, so I'm especially inclined right now to say that yeah, either way is good.

[discussion prompt]  
> If you write does it feel more creative to include original  
> characters, or is it more of a challenge to create your story with  
> characters that already exist?

Ummm.... they both present their own challenges. I guess if I were determined to write stories using *only* characters that already exist, then that would be more challenging because sometimes there wouldn't be an obviously appropriate character to fill a need. Though of course the difficulty would depend on how far you're willing to stretch the definition of "characters that already exist." (Eg: Umm... I need Vic's downstairs neighbour to complain about the noise, but the neighbour was never shown in the show... so it turns out that he lives above the juggler from the first scene of Big Bang Theory!) hee hee. OK, I guess that's probably not what the question meant. I'm just amusing myself here. Don't mind me.

[Another fan] mentioned that one time that OC's can come in very handy is when involving the family members of characters. Right now I'm actually working on a fic filling in Mac's family history, so I am using a minor character from the show (Mac's dad) as well as an original character (Mac's mom). I do find Anita (the mom - we have her name from the show, but nothing else about her) more challenging to write than Mr. Ramsey, because with Mr. Ramsey there's already a framework in place. I know what he looks like, I know he's a con artist, I know how he talks. Anita, on the other hand, started out as nothing more than her function in the story (she does this, then this, then this...) and I've got to flesh her out from that.

[discussion prompt]  
> What about the dreaded Mary Sue? Is it always just self-indulgent  
> hack writing? These characters have been criticized for being too  
> smart, too beautiful and just too perfect. Often times aren't  
> lead canonical characters written the same way without any criticism?

Oddly enough, I don't think I've encountered any Mary Sues. (Except for a really funny one, that was written deliberately in answer to some sort of "Mary Sue" challenge.) I haven't yet met any female OC who took a major role in a fic; the male OC's I've met have been suitably flawed and have always served perfectly useful roles in the stories. Of course, I haven't been around very long - maybe everyone's being more careful these days?

My theory is that Mary Sues would probably be fun to write, boring to read. When I was younger, long before I discovered fanfic online, I used to have fun imagining stories involving myself and characters from books, shows and movies. (Especially Star Trek. I *really* liked to imagine myself hanging out on the Enterprise.) I never bothered to write any of them down, and I can't imagine anyone other than me would be interested in them at all, but they were a fun way to pass the time when I was walking to school or waiting to fall asleep or such.

As for the lead canonical characters.... Hm. I think Mac and Vic generally are written with flaws intact - their flaws are what make them so *fun*. Well, except in PWP's where sometimes there's no room for anything but the sex... I have no issue with them being flawless in a short sex scene.

I think the Director is the character who comes across as all-knowing, all-seeing, infinitely smart and completely in control most often in fics... it may not be realistic, but it is consistent with how she appears in canon. Granted, there are episodes where she shows weakness, or makes mistakes - but more often she does seem to be inhumanly on top of things, and I think it's entirely fair game to write her that way. I wouldn't call that a Mary Sue - she really does appear like that in canon. (On the other hand, it would be interesting to see more of the flawed, human side of her... if she *is* human).

-Shadowscast


	8. What do you think of Jackie?

**Summary for the Chapter:**

> In this post, I was responding to a "weekly question" that had been posted to the list to stimulate discussion. The question was about the character Jackie.

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> Originally posted to the RatBoat mailing list on 2002-06-04.
> 
> Uploaded to AO3 on 2020-03-01.

[discussion prompt]  
> What do you think of Jackie? Is she an interesting  
> addition to the team, or just an annoyance? Is she  
> just a ditz, or does she have hidden depths? Is she  
> good at heart, or evil, or what? Can you see her  
> paired with anyone (or would you want to)? If you  
> write, what do you do with her? If you read, do you  
> like to see her in fics?

Originally she annoyed me. The usurper! What business does she have, showing up and beating Li Ann and Mac in hand-to-hand combat, and taking over Li Ann's role as the Director's pet? Also, in her original appearance she's clearly unstable - there's an edge of madness to the carnival atmosphere of that ep, and what the hell is she thinking starting a gang war for *fun*?

Once she joins the team, she does seem more together. (Maybe the Director put her on meds.) She's actually a pretty good agent, and that makes me like her. On the other hand, I've never entirely trusted her. It seems to me that the other three have strong bonds of friendship, trust (oh, and sexual tension) pulling them together - she just works with them because the Director tells her to.

As for pairings... as I've said before, I can see *anyone* on the show (um, possible exceptions of the Cleaners and Nathan) paired with anyone else. This goes for Jackie, too. In particular, she has a few scenes with the Director that scream sexual tension.

In fics, I've always used her on a purely convenience basis. If I need her to balance out the pairings or whatever, I use her. If I don't want her, I don't even mention her. I feel free to do this since she's not *exactly* part of the team. Also... I haven't managed to nail her dialogue yet. Whenever I try to write her voice, the word "like" just comes up *way* too much. :P

Cheers,

Shadowscast


	9. What if Mac left the Agency?

**Summary for the Chapter:**

> Once again, I was responding to a "weekly question" that had been posted to the list to stimulate discussion. The question was about what would have happened if Mac had ever actually left the Agency.

**Notes for the Chapter:**

> I've cobbled this chapter together from posts I made on 2002-06-14, 2002-06-18 and 2002-06-19, all on the same topic.
> 
> Uploaded to AO3 on 2020-03-01.
> 
> I've left in some snippets of quotes that I was responding to, but as usual I've redacted the other fans' names.

[discussion prompt]  
> what will a "free" Mac Ramsey do with his life? 

Hm, interesting question.

I think a good place to start is "Big Bang Theory" - in which he (thinks he) actually is in this situation. And what does he do? Immediately gets into trouble by falling hard for the first woman he meets, who talks him into robbing a bank for her. Now, granted, the Director is pulling the strings - but it's not like she has to work up a sweat over it, she just sets things up so his natural impulses put him right where she wants him. Now, Li Ann's theory about why Mac fell for Kathy ('s tricks) is that he needs someone to be loyal to. As soon as he was cut off from her, Vic, the Director and the Agency, he couldn't help forming a bond with practically the first person he met, because he *needs* that bond. If Li Ann is right (Mac didn't seem so sure that she was) then he'd be liable to fall into that same pattern again, any time he was cut loose again.

[another fan wrote:]  
> I think Mac would put on a big show of being free, but would come  
> back quickly to try and persuade Vic and/or LiAnne to leave with  
> him.

Hee, yeah, that sounds about right.

[another fan wrote:]  
> Vic and LiAnne seemed to have found their place at the Agency  
> so I don't think he would succeed in persuading them to leave.

Hm, I'm not so sure. Do you think Vic and Li Ann are really content at the Agency? Certainly they've both been there longer than Mac has (Vic seems to have been there for about 6 years) but they both have a lot of problems with the Director and the Agency. For instance I think Vic really resents the lack of privacy. They all get frustrated with the Director's, er, management techniques.

[another fan wrote:]  
> I wonder how much he wanted to leave the Tang for moral reasons or  
> how much he was following LiAnne's lead.

Hm. I don't think he was following Li Ann's lead (LiAnne? I notice there's more than one spelling of her name in circulation - is there actually an official spelling, or are we all just guessing?). Remember, he was the one who first suggested to her that they should run away, and that was because of the moral issue (the arms dealing). Li Ann originally didn't think that was a good enough reason to leave the Tangs ("We're criminals. We've always been criminals.") Now, one could definitely argue that Mac was also partly motivated by wanting to steal Li Ann back from Michael, but I think that would be pure speculation; what we actually *see* is Mac learning about the arms dealing, being disturbed by it, and trying to convince Li Ann to leave on that basis. Li Ann, on the other hand, doesn't decide to leave until after she sees Michael murder a man. Does this cause her to make a moral decision to leave (not wanting to be part of an organization that uses murder as a tactic), or does she just decide to leave at this point because she becomes afraid of Michael? I'd like to believe the former, but I think the show leaves it ambiguous. (When Li Ann explains her decision to leave to Mac, she says something along the lines of "I know they'll kill us. But if we stay we're dead anyway." Maybe she's speaking metaphorically - if they stay, their souls are dead. Or maybe she's speaking literally - she realizes that sooner or later, Michael will kill her.)

[another fan wrote:]  
> So, I don't think Mac  
> would be above running a few scams in order to get some operating  
> money.

I agree with you here.

I think it's interesting in light of what I discussed above that once they're part of the Agency, Li Ann seems to be ashamed of her criminal past while Mac is actually quite proud of most of it. For example, one time Vic and Li Ann are together and Li Ann picks a lock and Vic says (approximately) "You've got to teach me how to do that sometime" and Li Ann says (approximately) "It's a criminal skill, it's nothing to be proud of." Whereas Mac is consistently proud of his criminal skills.

[another fan wrote:]  
> I see Mac eventually being  
> some sort of motivational speaker, selling his ideas,  
> or as a friend once called these people a BS artists.

Hee. Yeah. He was faking that job when he met Claire, right? He seemed to enjoy himself well enough.

Actually, that's kind of like what his bio-dad does. Maybe his dad would show up again, and they'd go into business together for real. Mac *shouldn't* trust his dad again, but he probably would (from "Mac Daddy," it looks like he falls for it every time).

[another fan wrote:]  
> What would be even more interesting and fitting  
> is if he became some sort of channeller with a following  
> ready to fork over the bucks as he pulls some ancient warrior  
> out of the ether.

This is an amusing image. *g*

Actually, I think it's quite likely he wouldn't go even that legit. He never seemed to see any moral problem with theft, so he might seriously go into the international jewel thief business or some such.

[another fan wrote:]  
> That really highlights a contradiction in Mac's behavior  
> between the pilot and the much looser guy who appears in the series,  
> morally speaking that is. Do you think it is a stretch that Mac  
> finds the arms dealing objectionable, and why just that aspect? Did  
> the Godfather really raise him to be fine young man? If we believe  
> the last episodes it was the Godfather who wanted to get the family  
> out of any criminal activity. Could Mac have been emulating him  
> earlier? 

I think it's totally believable that Mac was upset with the arms dealing and not the rest. People commonly draw a moral distinction between theft and murder; Mac seems to equate the arms dealing with murder. He tells LiAnn in the pilot something along the lines of "You want to steal some software, I'm your guy. But I don't sell death." (Sorry for any inaccuracies in the quoting; I'm going by memory here.)

The Godfather did want to get the family out of crime, but remember that the Director (being the suspicious and cynical sort) was convinced that his reasons were practical, rather than ethical.

[another fan wrote:]  
> Mac needs to stay clear of his dad, but really wants his  
> attention. This is an interesting juxtaposition to Vic who doesn't  
> want to have anything to do with his parents.

Mac is maybe more like LiAnn in this; the one time she mentions her parents, she sounds very forgiving of the fact that they sold her into prostitution when she was a child. Now, it's probably true that they were driven to it by desperate circumstances, but still, wouldn't you expect her to be more obviously *bitter* about it? Maybe this has to do with the emphasis on loyalty in the Tang family, and the profound respect the Chinese traditionally have for their ancestors. Mac and LiAnn are both programmed so they can't hate their parents, no matter what? Whereas Vic of course grew up here, in the West, where resenting your parents is practically an industry. 

-Shadowscast


End file.
